Well um and again it depends on what definition uh you apply to to the world of brain computer interfaces but to me first of all it's about solving a therapeutic need is a is a solving a a real health problem. So we don't see at brain we don't see BCI technology in a way that goes and augment healthy people. Um, this is not what we believe on. [Music]

So, welcome to Impulse, Carla. Thank you for accepting my invitation and for finding some time within your busy schedule. We have a topic for today that's been at the center of media coverage over the past weeks. We are recording this in February 2024. There's been some major progress in the field and I'm talking here about brain computer interfaces. So Neurolink one of the many companies from from Mr. Musk for those who have not heard of it they showed a few days ago that they had successfully implanted their first human patient with their technology which will be used um in general to to record motion related thoughts in the cereal cortex. So I'm very much external to the

field. I observe that there's a lot of speculation and fantasy almost about how these technologies could be used and for what purposes. It feeds for sure an incredible amount of hope in certain medical areas, notably in motor rehabilitation. Um, we talked on the podcast with Dr. Joselyn Block in episode 6. Um, so wonderful neuro neurosurgeon, uh, whom you might actually know in the arena of Loausan. And one aim you know from from my perspective for our conversation today would be to demystify you know the noise that's created around BCIS or brand computer interfaces understand where the field is at where it's going and and learn about you know what can be

expected of it and what not. So I'm looking forward to our to hearing your perspective on all these things Carola as you and your team at inbrain neur electronics are spearheading the field and are literally in the midst of the action. But before we go there, I would invite you first to to present yourself. Thank you, Matthew. It's just a pleasure to to come to impulse today. Uh my name is Karolina Gillard. They all as you already did and um I'm a pharmacist and a neuroscientist uh but mainly working on business and market development all my life in international uh scopes. So pleasure. Thanks. And so tell us a bit about you

know what the what the mission of inbrin electronics is before we go into the specifics of brain computer interfaces. In brain electronic is a company at the intersection of met da health and deep

tech that uses graphine to decode neural signals into into breakthrough medical solutions. uh we do so by looking at the brain in high resolution so we can help uh the mind solving the neural challenge and so the you mentioned graphine what is what is particular with that material why graphine yeah so graphine is carbon it's a b dimensional material it's a nobel prize winner material two researchers isolated uh at the beginning of the 2000s and in 2010 this research just got the Nobel Prize is the thinnest material known to men. It's just an atom thick yet is about 200 times stronger than a steel and it's very flexible, biompatible and

is an excellent conductor. So it makes an excellent candidate as well for neurochnology. And so basically at inbrain neur electronics you're approaching brain computer interfaces from a new like the new technology you're providing enables better like sensing of the neural signals better stimulation like what what does it what does it change compared to what other companies are doing actually. So we have two graphine technologies but both enable high density and high resolution. So pretty much uh in terms of density we can go to extremely small contacts of about well I

mean we can go to any size but to make them actionable we start at 25 micrometers so between 25 micrometers to let's say 300 micrometers is is the sizes that we are now um most used in.

So there's this density uh in a very micrometric fashion that we can use. We can go up to,24 contacts. But it's also the resolution and the engrafing can inject 200 times uh more charge than platinum at a very low impedance. So the signal to noise ratio is extremely good. And also we have this other technology that allow us to see frequency bands below 0.1 hertz. So things that metals mainly cannot see. So we can go from minus 0 uh 0.1 hertz to kilohertz. Uh

and so all the spectrum of frequency bands that the that the brain uses to communicate is is what we are aiming to decode. And so this has the potential to be used in any basically in any brain computer interfaces, right? It's like you basically provide a platform that enables to increase the resolution of the signals and the quality of the Yeah. of the information to be to be transferred. Yeah. And on top of that, typically brain computer interfaces have been using the decoding side of the interface, right? The reading. Yeah. However, when we find therapeutic approaches is on the stimulation uh and even better on the combination of reading and then responding to that uh

pathological biomarker for instance and therefore uh creating a closed loop. I think to me that's the ultimate brain computer interface if we can do it at high resolution because at the end decoding is quite limiting. Yes, you can move objects, jets, you can program uh action intention uh but at the end therapeutic approaches are really delivered while you stimulate. So I think this is extremely important um and and probably expands the concept of BCI technology which is actually what we want to and so you you I think that's in line with what you were you were saying like what where is the need actually you know coming from for for for BCIS why do we

why is it needed why why why why should why couldn't we do without And so what are the first indications where you see in brain your electronics playing a role?

So the first indication would be Parkinson's disease would there be like what would be the the kind of like the adjacent ones or the next ones.

Could you double click on the point that you mentioned that you're running um the company as a biotech company? What what were you meaning in that regard?

I understand. And so could you explain us um you know if we take the example of pockets disease and deep brain stimulation um what are the benefits of increasing the resolution and um yeah basically all the the advantages you listed from a technical perspective how does that translate in terms of clinical outcomes um what's the state of uh the the evidence Here.

I see because I understand. And if we go back to the the know the episode six I mentioned with just block. So she was explaining to us you know the the device they're using. So it's like I think a 16 electrode uh patch that they put on the spinal cord. So if you manage to double, triple or whatever by whatever factor increase the resolution and the number of actually electrodes you can place on that device like you just you know selectively much better stimulate the patients and restore the walking pattern in in in in the case of of of their work. So I I see that this is like has

like a huge potential. Could you explain us um so where is it? Are you guys like you know building this on yourselves? How is it like is the manufacturing happening in house and so on?

I see. And how I see and um so for the the indication for example of Parkinson's disease, how far in the clinical development are you with the company or you know in other words when will human patients um benefit from the technology?

I see. And um what are some of the the you know the the risks that you foresee for I I would say in general you know not necessarily just for your your your specific technology but yeah risk that you foresee for patients to that would adopt you know these brain implants for example we talked about the first person who got like the the neurolink device um given the current state of the technology are there like actual big risks or no risks at all because if you ask the general public like people some people freak out about this. Some people are Yeah.

you mentioned at the beginning that's maybe taking us a bit away from what we we're discussing now but you said like I you would not see you know the the use of PCIs for augmentation like for people who are like you're healthy you do not justify that so you basically don't foresee you know healthy people like you and you and me using such types of devices in the next 5 to 10 years, right? It would be more for purely for medical reasons.

Don't like Yeah. Yeah. know and I I I relate to these points and do you think in that time frame 5 to 10 years um you know there will be in for for the relevant indications PCIs would be just like a common um a common approach I mean it's already used for for the brain stimulation we talked about it but I mean using for example your technology specifically do you think in that time frame this will be democratized

Yeah, it's already at capacity. And do you foresee those technologies to be, you know, affordable to to to most? Because to me it sounds like these are Yeah.

Thank you We're always Yeah, for that purpose. Mhm. Needed. Yeah. And so I imagine you're already in discussion with some of the providers and the payers in the US as to how to make that happen once you know the your product is going to be commercialized.

But I don't know that you can prove that it works data. and on on that. So the benchmark for example in the case of Parkinson's is the the benchmark would be um the brain stimulation but in some other indications that you know where you would approach um the therapy in a completely new way where there is no basically good standard of care or anything alternative like for example if you talk about motor rehabilitation maybe there are like exoskeletons I don't know but it's like there are two categories like there's one where it's like an incremental change maybe the one for DBS And then you're looking for something even, you know, much much bigger in a

way where you're you're really like enabling to solve a problem that was not solved at all before. Yes. I see. Um so we we covered you know the you explained us you know the the reason why why um in brain neurotrings is there that there is like where there is a medical need for BCIS that's where it makes sense. uh you explained us what how the technology works um who would you know who would benefit from it how you would actually commercialize it with that value based approach we talked about um you mentioned you were working in metronic before um joining in brain your electronics what what convinced you to make the change because you moved

from that I guess they are like the leaders right in um in Parkinson's disease and and with the DBS treatment um yeah what what what convinced you to join branding your electronics.

Yeah, it's a huge company. Okay. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. Um, you know, another thing maybe that's also related to, you know, career development and trajectories like professional trajectories. So far, you're my my fifth um female guest on on the show over 27 episodes recorded. So, I think it's a way too small number. Um, what would you say to our female listeners who are, you know, aspiring scientists or businesswoman willing to to have a career in the biotech or metric industry? Like why why did you choose that path? Why do you think it's nice? What are some of the limitations? like kind of like your open perspective on this.

It's interesting. I think Daniel Craft, you you might know him. He told me the same on episode 12. Yeah. Yeah, he told exactly the same. So, yeah. No, no, that's that's very inspiring. Thank you for sharing that. So we, you know, looking at the time, I think we're shortly, you know, coming to the to the end of the episode and and I mean that was super interesting. I really like the, you know, what we discussed about the this this thing around, you know, having a therapeutic need that justifies PCIs and there's all these fantasy. I'm like when I look at like medias and stuff and people coming up with those

crazy ideas of you know augmentation and so on but I share you know your point that doesn't really make a lot of sense for me. Um so so yeah no thanks thanks a lot for for sharing all these things. Um there's a bunch of recurring questions at the end of of each episode I'd like to ask you Cara. So the first one is um for the curious ones listening to us who would like to you know learn even more about BCIS about your technology adding brain neur electronics um what resources would you recommend them to check out to know more about it?

It's a good source. Thank you so much. I'll put I'll put all the links in the show notes. Thanks so much, Ka. I'm blushing. Um can you share with us an anecdote from your work um at brain that made you realize the impact that you were having on patients lives? So you mentioned your you're about kind like to to get into first inhuman use but um yeah if there's anything you can share in that regard Ready?

Love you. But Okay. Yeah, I'm sure there will be more very soon. And it's interesting like I think it's the first time you know someone on the show tells me that they they set up or at let's say at at the stage where you are that already you know established a patient sort of like patient console um and have that close connection to them. I think it's I can imagine for employees it's super it's really really helpful and yeah huge motivation motivational driver um thanks a lot for sharing that. Um, so yeah, in every episode, you know, I I get a lot of inspiration from from all the guests I have the the chance to have on

the show and without a doubt, you know, you're no exception in that aspect. Um, there are surely other pioneers in the medical field. We mentioned maple um and some of the other companies operating in a similar field as you do. Um, but if there would be, you know, one or a few you would recommend uh on the show, um, who would those be and and why would you recommend them?

You're a self. the person. You put me in contact with all of them though. Let's see. But no, it's I think I mean I'd like on the the topic on my list. I mean the no brain computer interactions that was one of the first episode we discussed. We discussed it today. But I I hope I can have also like a follow up conversation with some of these folks going forward. Yeah. But thank you so much Carola. I I learned a ton of things. I think people will really appreciate the exchange. Um, just for those that are still with us, you know, thank you for for dialing in, um, if you think that the conversation's

been useful and you know someone who would benefit from it, please share it with that person. Um, I also continuously receive feedback about the episodes and the podcast and I'm really thankful for that. So, please continue to do that. Um, you can subscribe um, on any streaming platforms. Please leave us also a fivestar review. That would be very appreciated. And you can follow our activities on LinkedIn, uh the website, the podcast newsletter. And yeah, that's it. See you. You see

Thank you so much Carola. I wish you all the best within Brain and I hope we get to see each other soon in Loausan or elsewhere in Switzerland. Thanks a lot.