I've always said that it's not about the technology, it's about answering a need. And so if no one finds a reason to use this technology, then maybe it just doesn't address a need that is of importance right now. I mean, we can always hope that the industry will want to use technologies that bring this transparency, integrity, and so on. But if there's not an actual need that's identified that's burning right now for this, then the technology is just not going to get the traction that it deserves or that it needs. So I don't want to be the person who says, "Oh, we should really adopt blockchain. It's such a great technology." And so on.

I've been that person in the past and it hasn't really changed the conversation. Um but I think we should really focus maybe first of all on understanding better why is it that we're not aiming to use this technology. What is it about the fact that so if we just look at use cases not talking about the technology if we you look at simple things like you know one of the value propositions of blockchain was we should give patients more control over their health data. the way that it's used, who uses it, for what reason, and so on.

— Hello Ana, and welcome to Impulse. I'm glad to have you um on the show for what will be actually the second episode of the series where we talk about, you know, weight three and its applications in healthcare. We did uh basically three years ago an episode that was episode 10 that we recorded with EA Tra from the Dealth Foundation. Um so actually in the first season of the podcast uh back in 2022 um I think it's still you know a great entry point I think for our listeners who might have never heard um about the topic and why it's relevant for healthcare. Um so you know if you want to have a better understanding of

the technology behind web 3 the applications and you know the hopes it fostered um within healthcare at the time I strongly encourage you to you know have a listen to it. I think it will nicely complement the the conversation we'll have today. And we also I don't think we'll we'll cover again the the basics. So I'll I'll redirect you guys uh to that one as well. Um we're now recording in August 2025. Uh so more than 3 years later and you know I'm sure that many things have changed or evolved uh in the meantime. So I'm counting on you Ana uh for getting us up to speed and you know

taking us through what worked, what uh hasn't worked and also what were the new opportunities or the applications um that came up over the past three years and you know what we might expect for the years to come as well. So with that and you know before we start diving into this space uh again I would invite you to to present yourself. — Absolutely. Well thank you first of all so much for having me. It's a pleasure to come after the episode with Abberhar. Everhar is quite a veteran of this field. So that's a lot of pressure on me to keep you guys up to date with what's going on in the web 3 space. Um I've

been in this space for the past eight years now. I believe I'm a pharmacist by training and I've sort of discovered the field of web 3 initially through blockchain um eight nine years ago. I thought it was absolutely fascinating. It was at the time where blockchain was a bit of a buzzword. It was starting to buzz. Everyone knew about Bitcoin. There was a big crypto craze going on. And that's sort of the period when I entered the web 3 space. It wasn't really called web 3 back then. We didn't really use that term. We talked about blockchain and we then we ended up calling it web 3. But that's how I discovered it

through someone who introduced me to the field through the lens of crypto. And um studying pharmacy myself, I thought it was really interesting to try to connect the dots and see how this field of blockchain and crypto could relate to healthcare and have an impact in the healthcare industry. So this is how I started eight years ago. Ever since I've been hosting a podcast, I have a community of people interested in web 3. Uh nowadays we do talk a lot about web 3 and AI. The podcast is called Tech Anatomy and um we keep the conversation going um a bit like what you're doing with Impulse and um besides of that um I

also have a company called Metric Studio where we create our own podcasts uh for other people who are looking to do similar things. — Super cool. And I'll recommend also the listeners to check out you know the not only like tech anatomy which was the or were formerly called you know into the mental health but also yeah your work with met studio and what you do with Margaret we've had the chance to work together in the past so yeah I can highly recommend your services um so you know back in the time where we did the episode with Eberhart I think the focus we had during the conversation was you know some basics about what

three means but it was also applications around you know drug traceability and you know patient data ownership. Um you know from your perspective in 2025 you know how do you think this has evolved in terms of applications? What have what have you seen you know in the space and where what are some of the current applications that you know are really let's say changing care practices or really got like traction into into healthcare. So I think that the use cases per se have been the same ever since we started identifying them and working around them five, six, seven years ago. The main use cases that we always describe around web

3 and now I'll be specific more to blockchain are the use cases around um data integrity, traceability and anything that has to do with proving that something happened at a moment in time and making sure that that information um stays the same over time that no one can alter that information. That value proposition is still very much the same. That's what the technology does. It hasn't changed. What has changed is more the view that we have and the sort of media circus that h that happens around the technology. And so the value proposition and the use cases are still pretty much the same. It's just that we don't really talk

about them so much anymore. And a lot of the proof of concepts and the experimentations that have that happened in the past, they never really went into production and implementation at a large scale. those who did are very confidential. People don't really talk about them and a lot of people who are using blockchain and distributed ledger technologies as a whole don't really mention it anymore. It's not something that sells let's say. So it's not something that people will advertise saying oh we are a blockchain solution or blockchain company or whatever. They are going to say we are here to protect, ensure the integrity of your data, ensure the traceability of your products

and it happens that we're using blockchain if you're asking. But if you're not asking, we're not going to tell you. So the use cases are still pretty much the same. It's just really the whole speech around it that has changed lately. Mhm. And so do you think this is due to or what is your interpretation interpretation? Why is this not more let's say broadly communicated? Is it linked to what happened? So basically in the year where we recorded the first episode 2022 there was like a whole let's say what what people call like this crypto winter where there was a lot of like downturns in terms of on the you know crypto

market. There were I think many industry like in the industry as well there were a lot of like scandals and blah blah Um do you think it's related to that? It's kind of like in the aftermath and in the rebuilding of that phase that you know these actors changed the way they would communicate about the technology and you know specifically as well the its applications in healthcare. Do you think there's like a trust element that's there? I think that this is something that I've been trying to figure out for the past maybe three or four years, ever since we started not talking about it so much. It's really hard to pinpoint what

exactly it is. So, we kind of made different hypothesis. The first one was as you said, it is linked to the crypto winter. So, because the crypto field is

not doing well, then there's less interest in everything blockchain related. that first hypothesis, I don't believe it to be true because for the past year, we've had a surge in the crypto world. Uh we're seeing a very

bullish market and everything seems to be going quite well, but that doesn't mean that we have new projects coming into the blockchain and healthcare space. the blockchain and healthcare space is still incredibly silent independently of anything that happens in the crypto world. I don't believe these two fields are connected. Maybe for some companies that have gone through ICOs and that have a token and that are very much linked to the crypto community, it could have an impact. But in the larger healthcare industry, the traditional healthcare industry, they don't really care what's going on in the crypto market, they really dissociate the two components, the crypto and the technology, which is the blockchain

technology. So I don't think it's linked. So that leaves us to with then what what is it? What's the reason? Um we work a lot with the pharmaceutical industry. So what I say is really from that standpoint. The pharmaceutical industry was really interested in blockchain. A couple of years ago, especially when it comes to tracing products, making sure that we're fighting against counterfeit products and so on. Um, also making sure that data from clinical trials is traceable and that there's no problem there. And those were all use cases that they thought were really interested and they really try to create projects and experiments and so on. But what ended up

happening is that these companies didn't go all the way to an actual solution or product or project. What happened was that they ended up investing in something else because what blockchain really brings is integrity. its transparency, its traceability, and those are things that are very hard to quantify from a return on investment standpoint. — So if we're going to invest money in such projects, what is it that we're actually gaining? More traceability, more transparency, sure. But what exactly does that mean to us? And what happened is that it was so hard to quantify what exactly it was that it was bringing to these companies that they ended up not pursuing the projects. And

those projects were actually pursued by third parties like vendors and software providers and other type of tech and IT and those type of companies. And now what we see is that those companies are creating pieces of software that integrate blockchain technology. Again, they don't really advertise it anymore. It's just part of the stack. And then those companies sell this solutions and those products to traditional healthcare companies, mostly hospitals, institutions. I don't

see a lot of it going to the pharmaceutical industry. I could be mistaken. I think it's very minimal but the projects are really driven now by tech IT companies that are integrating it into their softwares rather than by traditional healthcare companies and institutions and so on. — And so these these third parties are the ones driving the let's say the evidence around the benefits of you know using that technology for transparency for traceability for integrity of you know healthcare data. How how do you see it? Like is it because Yeah. I'm I'm wondering if it's you know as I mean knowing a bit the field I have the impression like the pharma companies or

like healthcare actors they like to see they like to generate that evidence themselves. So I'm wondering like if they are actually sensible to what these third parties are kind of like you know now bringing to the table in terms of okay these are the benefits you might withdraw from that technology. But yeah, — well I don't first of all I don't see a lot of them actually selling to pharmaceutical companies. So I don't think they're really making an argument around that. those that I see are for instance selling to let's say healthcare facilities and they go so we have a software and the idea of the software is that it will help you uh manage consent

forms um digitally for all the patients that are involved in clinical trials in your hospital because you have to collect the data you have to store the data make sure that it's tamperproof etc etc and our software does that so this is what we're selling And the fact that it uses a blockchain sort of comes into the argument of this is tamperproof, this is secure, this is whatever. But just as you don't explain what the other technologies are that you're using in your software, you don't go into that much detail. Uh except if you're actually talking to someone who's interested in that, but you wouldn't necessarily state it from the get-go.

— You don't really state that you're using blockchain from the get-go either. It's just part of the technical stuff that makes your software or your solution. — Yeah. And I'm I'm curious maybe like on the healthare professional or the patient side like do you have any um let's say thoughts on what's what's their thinking about you know benefiting from a solution that might be relying on blockchain or like I'm always thinking a bit and that's what I think we also discussed with um Eberhart in that in episode 10 like what is a bit the the user experience from an HCP perspective from a patient perspective. for these types of solutions. And again

to your points, maybe they might not even see it these days. Um, so because I guess it's probably different than what you see in the cryptocurrency space. Um, so — so I think that there might be some people that are familiar with crypto within the healthcare industry. That is absolutely not the majority of people. The people we talk to mainly as I said in pharma or healthcare facilities, they have no clue how these things work. They've heard of Bitcoin, but that's pretty much it. Um, so in order for it to work, if you're using some blockchain in your software or your

solution, it has to look like what people are used to. It cannot look any different. Otherwise, you're going to have an onboarding period that's just crazy long and will require a lot of explanation. And if we take the example of patients who are involved in a clinical trial in a hospital, those are people that have better things to do than learn how to use a crypto wallet to store — their, you know, identification and whatnot. — So, you really have to make it smooth. It really has to come down to, you know, email address and password. if you have to log into something even if it's blockchainbased it it has to be really simple so I think

that a lot of the companies that I see have given up on the whole token wallet system and they're really using the technology as sort of an audit trail on steroids very powerful way of tracking data but without um letting it really get to the patient in terms of user experience and keeping the patient as far away as possible from all that if it's an patient facing application if it's not then I don't really know how they manage it maybe they have some wallet system but for knowledgeable people but I think that today if I were to launch a solution that's blockchain based first of I'll probably not talk about it not

advertise it and second of all I would try to make it as normal as possible for the end user because it's already challenging to have someone adopt their solution. So you you you shouldn't need a manual to understand how to use it and how to connect to that solution. — Yeah. And I mean in a way this is also showing that this is maybe or my interpretation would be that this is getting you know commoditized to some degree or you know the fact that people are not talking or putting it out loud that you know in the background there's you know we're using this type of blockchain blah blah blah. Um it just

shows that maybe you know in the end it doesn't matter if it does you know from an infrastructure and from a data integrity perspective does the job. Um yeah maybe like I guess patients or healthare professionals or administrators and so on do not care that much you know what's what's actually behind um that um the solutions um but

it what's it it's really you know I kind of have like two different ways of saying things on one side like I have to be pragmatic it's not taking off it's not driving interest it's not driving investment ments. It's not living up to the promise that was set eight years ago. It's just not. Otherwise, we would all know about it and it would be, you know, Chad GBT. We all know about it. It is it's not happening. But at the same time, I kind of have a hard time giving up on it because the value proposition is interesting, is a strong one, is one that we should be aiming for in

healthcare. Would you tell me that you don't want a health care system that's more transparent, that ensures data integrity, that allows patients more control over their data? No one would say that. We're all aiming towards that. But, you know, between what we're aiming for and what we're ready to do today to invest into the technology that could take us there, that's a huge gap. I don't know how we can bridge that gap but the gap is very much real today.

— Yeah. I was also thinking you know I mean you mentioned Chad GPT like artificial intelligence that was kind of like the new trendy thing that might be came up right after the whole crypto thing and and blockchain. Um do you have any um thoughts to share in terms of how like artificial intelligence and web 3 kind of like intertwine and how it they might have or could you know benefit um healthcare in general? So I think that first of all we need to redefine what we mean when we talk about web 3 because if we solle live it around

blockchain then we're missing out on a lot of different things. Um I think that today when we talk about web 3 there are a lot of things that are encompassed. Um, of course, the foundational one being uh blockchain, but there have been a lot of applications for a larger audience that have emerged based on blockchain and that are now entering into this web 3 field. Um, things like um you know virtual environments and metaverses, those are part of this larger term that is web 3. Um the same

with ways of gamifying property and loyalty programs things with things like NFTTS and things like that. Um so the web 3 space is really changing and it's

integrating a lot of different things that are not necessarily blockchain. And so when we talk about web 3 and AI the idea is to see how do these two massive things because AI is its own world. So, how do these two very massive worlds integrate with one another? And for the longest time, they have been opposed simply because AI appeared in the media

and took over the web 3 environment. And so, everyone was like, oh, this competition um AI is, you know, crushing

web 3 and so on. The reality is that those are two very complimentary things. one is about um and namely AI is about using large volumes of data in healthcare for instance to predict stuff to generate stuff to make sense of data that's impossible to make sense as a human and the other one is about tracking transparency and integrity. So they really have nothing to do with one another and it would be really weird and silly to think that they're competing when they're actually about two very different things. So a lot of them well not a lot some of the projects that we're seeing at the intersection of these two worlds are about you know

using web 3 and blockchain specifically to ensure the transparency and the integrity of data that you're using over time. um try to tackle also the sort of blackbox effect of AI and bringing more transparency to what's actually the data and how are these models working and then AI is just coming on top of that as sort of the engine and the machine that makes sense out of all this data so they're very complimementaryary and I don't really see them you know in a confrontational position — yeah and do you are there like particular applications in healthcare in that regard that you are the true would like to share with us because I guess

from a conceptual perspective that that resonates with me. Um just wondering if there's like certain health systems that have or you know have are using actually that that combination. — Um so there's one that I've heard of um a couple of months ago from someone that I was actually going to recommend to come on your show. U his name is Jim Nasser. He's the founder of ACOR and he was uh formerly at the CDC in the US. Uh

so the center for disease control and uh he was I think a software architect um but very heavily involved in the CDC and he with his company they've created something and I'm going to give you like a very basic understanding. I'm not going to get into the details because I I don't know very well but from my understanding it's an artificial intelligence that can generate medical information. I believe it's in the field of oncology. The problem that we have today with AI is that it has a lot of hallucinations. So a lot of the data that is produced as you go into the conversation is starting to go farther and further from the original

information that you provided or the original data. it starts hallucinating more and more. And so his system uses some blockchain tracibility to make sure that the information that is generated by AI is linked to the original one to sort of have this traceability of the information that is provided and making sure that it's still coherent and reliable versus the original information that was um given and that if hallucinations happen, they're tracked and they're identified. Maybe this is a very silly the description of the solution, but this is how I understood it. So it it's it comes back to what I said about the fact that they work in very complimentary ways.

One is here to ensure integrity and traceability and one is here to generate and make sense of data. And I think this is like a good example of how they could work together. — You should have him on the show. He'll explain so much better. — I'll try to have him then. Um you know you mentioned Anka that what you're you were saying you know in terms of how the how systems in general are set up where and where you know investments are going like there seems to be a lot of barriers for let's say broad adoption and scaling

up you know these like blockchain solutions or web 3 related solutions in healthcare and in health systems. Um if you could let's say um put like a word

on which are like the you know how how would you address those points from let's say a regulatory a technology or you know a commercial perspective like do you know like if you would have like a magic one what would need to be there in the first place so that there is like a a change or you think it's much more complicated than that Well, I I do think that we're lacking incentive. I mean, if no one is doing it is because no one finds a good reason to do it. Um because the return on investment is not there because there is no regulatory enforcement or anything like that. You know, I I remember it was

at the very beginning of me working in this field. So 8 years ago, one of the first companies that emerged in this field, they were doing something similar to what I was describing where they gathered, I think it was some work around consents in clinical trials and empowering patient to give their consent over the use of their health data in a clinical trial contract, something like that. And um I I remember the founder of

that company saying that he believes that his company could have massive su massive success on one single condition and that condition didn't happen. So the company's not there anymore spoiler. That condition was that regulatory authorities such as the FDA or the EMA would make it compulsory for pharmaceutical companies to track everything that's going on in a clinical trial through a blockchain that's auditable and that can be used as proof um during the audits and things like that. And for him that was the only way for the pharmaceutical industry and the healthcare industry to actually adopt this technology was if it was you know

just they they had to use it. It was compulsory. It was part of the process of submitting an for to the FDA or the

EMA. You had to do it through a blockchain. And if they didn't have that I don't even I don't even know if I can call it an incentive but that requirement they wouldn't do it because what's the return on investment of transparency right so long story long

story short that never happened the FDA never said that in order to conduct clinical trials now now you need to use a blockchain to track the data so his company ended up closing but I thought that was you sort of very pragmatic way of approaching things when he launched his business. — Yeah. And I mean in the end it's also very I would say it resonates as well with many other companies be like in you know medtech or also in digital health you know pushing let's say digital therapeutics or many other things that we actually discussed on the podcast like you are depending or as a company you are depending on systemic changes

like for example reimbursement of the these solutions which take time to be understood and again back to the re return on investment aspect hard to demonstrate. Um, and as long as you don't have those systemic changes being made. It's it's really hard to build like a long-term business that's working. You are depending on like maybe innovation grants or like, you know, money pots here and there, but it's it's tricky. So, I would say like by extension, this is probably also what other um yeah, let's say health tech startups are struggling with that might not be exactly in this space. — Yeah. But usually it's the other way around, right? We are um so regulatory

frameworks are sort of a barrier to adoption of technology. Here we're in a situation where we wish for regulatory frameworks to help us promote the use of this technology. So it's a bit different. You know, we have a lot of regulation where we don't want it, not enough where we actually want it. — Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you know you mentioned in the beginning that in the end let's say the use cases haven't changed so much you know since the since the let's say the inception of um or the emergence of like web 3 in healthcare and most of it rely or goes around you know ensuring transparency integrity um and in traceability of healthcare

information and data. Um I would I wanted to ask you like you know because you also shared you know the let's say the the struggles or the barriers that are being faced and also why we might also hear about it less. Um what would be like your or what

would you like to see let's say in the next five years in terms of development in this space? Um where I know you're you know following all of this very closely and you're very attached to to the topic. So if you had some yeah inspiration or some wishes in terms of how this should go, what would you like to see? Maybe it's like you know change maybe changes at the regulatory level um as as we discussed or maybe something different. Well, it's it's always very hard for me to answer this question because I feel like, you know, a spoiled kid when I have to say, "What exactly do I want for

blockchain adoption in healthcare?" Because I think that the conversation has to go past this. It's I've always said that it's not about the technology, is about answering a need. And so if no one finds a reason to use this technology that maybe just doesn't address a need that is of importance right now, I mean, we can always hope that the industry will want to use technologies that bring this transparency, integrity, and so on, but if there's not an actual need that's identified that's burning right now for this, then the technology is just not going to get the traction that it deserves or that it needs. So, I don't want to be the person who says, "Oh, we

should really adopt blockchain. It's such a great technology." And so on. I've been that person in the past and it hasn't really changed the conversation. Um, but I think we should really focus maybe first of all on understanding better why is it that we're not aiming to use this technology. What is it about the fact that so if we just look at use cases not talking about the technology if we you look at simple things like you know one of the value propositions of blockchain was we should give patients more control over their health data the way that it's used who uses it for what reason and so on. Some

countries are now developing these um online patient portals where patients have their health data aggregated in one place and it's really great. So one could ask okay fine that's a first step but why didn't you use blockchain to do it that would increase the ownership of patients and the transparency and so on. Why didn't they use blockchain? Well it's really simple. If patients put their trust in whoever manages the systems, whether it is a private company or public companies or just institutions in general, then there's absolutely no need whatsoever to use a blockchain to manage this data. If you trust the central party that is managing it, then you don't need a decentralized system.

If you don't trust the whoever is managing it, then you might consider decentralized system. So it's not really what do I like if if I am to advocate for the use of blockchain that means that I'm advocating for not placing trust in single entities and third parties to manage our healthcare, manage our data, manage anything related to our healthcare industry. That'd be terrifying to live in such a system. So there are use cases where you cannot trust a single party to manage something and you might need blockchain. The reality is that today at least in country where I live in France we do trust those companies and those public institutions to manage to some extent

our data and our healthcare system. So we don't see a burning need for to use blockchain technology. So really it's a hard question to to answer what exactly is it that I want or need or what magic quand would I want in the future for the adoption of blockchain. I think that fundamentally if if it helps you know bring better care more affordable care um anything like that then sure that's great if it doesn't I mean we should focus on other things — yeah understood I also saw you know when I was preparing the episode I saw one of the things that I think we didn't discuss with uh with Eberart and not in

this episode also so far which has probably more to do with um the clinical trials or research and development of uh new treatments. Uh that's what what's called you know decentralized science. Um can you tell us a bit more about that and what's the or yeah how it relates currently to um let's say yeah healthcare in general and what what's happening there. So that one is a field that I'm actually very excited about. Contrary to blockchain use in the broader healthcare industry, I think decentralized science is a topic that and an area that is very much misunderstood and again very much associated to the whole crypto craze and so on. Uh but it actually I believe

provides real value and I've seen this happening again and again. So there's actual proof of it. um where so people working in this size started from the idea that traditional science is flawed for a bunch of different reasons. Among these reasons is the fact that in research you basically have a period of time between what we call fundamental research where you're basically in your lab and the development of a drug. Let's say you have a period of time where it's just pure research and you need funding for that and usually you go for grants and this is how you get your funding. But it's called the valley of death because it's really a period of time in

which you really struggle because you're not at the very early stages where with very little money you can start your research and you're not at a phase where it's interesting to you know venture capitals and and so on because you don't really have proof of anything already. So it's that period of time that you need money but you don't really have proof of anything. So it's it's a tricky period of time. In addition to that, um your listeners might be familiar with this, but in research, everything is very wellkept behind pay walls. If you've ever tried to research for scientific papers online, more often than not, you are facing, you know,

these pay walls where everything has to be paid in order to access. So, as open as we want science to be, it's actually not that open. And there's a whole reviewing process for authors to get their work published in journals and so on. So it's it's very difficult. It's very flawed. It's lacking money etc. So a bunch of people said okay so if through the traditional system we cannot get funding we cannot get our research published we cannot even access the research of other people. Maybe we should find another way of doing things. Why not just ask the community, the people that are interested in this field? Because if your research, let's

say that you're researching something around a rare disease, and there's no one to pay for your research and help you out, but there are a lot of people out there, just regular people like you and I, who are actually interested in your research. Maybe they can help. you fund your research. Maybe they have skills that can help you in your project. And so the whole idea was to say if we don't find um traction in traditional science, maybe we can find traction in the general population and people who are interested in that. And so they created this communities of people who come together and they're called Dows, decentralized autonomous organizations

where it's just a community of people that each have roles and they support research. And basically what they do is that whatever comes of that out of that research namely intellectual property is then sold or licensed or whatever and the funds are reinjected into the community to help other projects grow. And so it's really a communitydriven um way of doing research. It doesn't replace traditional science in any way, but is just an alternative for people who are looking into specific projects or things that can really drive communities and public interest — and in and in the in the context of le let's say healthcare research do you have some some examples there or because

I guess I mean this applies to any field of science, right? — Absolutely any type of field of science. So, um, we've interviewed quite a few of these DAOs in the podcast last year. Um, we're actually, uh, co-founders of, uh, DI Nordics, which is the DI community of the Nordics. Um, and, uh, we've hosted, um, DI track just a couple of months ago in Stockholm. So, we've seen a lot of these players coming here. And one of the projects that are really interesting is one that's called Vita. It's perhaps the most wellknown in the space where it's a community of people working around longevity and they've raised um I

think it's a few millions by now that they've injected into different projects that they are funding. So the community has raised this money and then injecting it into different research projects around longevity that can then develop create IP and so on. So it's really interesting. I think they also received funding from Fizer a couple of years ago. So they're starting to connect with traditional healthcare and um so they are around longevity. Then there's others around um women's health around

hair growth. I think it's hair da around neuroscience climate change. There's a bunch of them that in different areas, you know, anything that can where people might say, "Oh, I I I have a problem linked to that too, so I might want to get involved." There's a dowo for it. — Interesting. And is this is completely then um or that research is led like outside, let's say traditional institutions, so universities or like these large I mean the context of healthcare like I'm wondering like if Yeah. how how in practice this is done, right? It's just like a bunch of people who recruit people for the for the for the research projects through these

communities. — Yeah. Well, actually in terms of practicalities, it's just it it still happens the same traditional way. I mean, a science experiment is a science experiment. You still use the same tools and material and lab things, etc. Um, it's just that the way that you're funded is through this decentralized way. And the way that your project evolves, it's you're not just yourself with your team and you know your lab. It's you and that whole community. And so you can go online and look up these communities. Most of them have open open discords and channels and stuff like that. And you can really see, you know, people just saying, "So today I did this

experiment. This is what I got. What do you think?" And people give feedback. And some of them are really experts. So they're like, "Oh, have you thought of this thing? And maybe you should improve it by doing this, this, and that." So it's really as if, you know, you have this massive community of people that's helping you out. Um, and you can talk to them at any time. It It's really fun. — Oh, that's cool. I I'll take a I mean I'll take a closer look because I I saw this terminal coming up when I was preparing the the the recording. So um I'm glad you you know you explained to

me what it is and yeah how it actually relates to potentially you know healthcare healthcare research. Um — but also back to the point of earlier we did not say the word blockchain once. We talked about science and community. We did not talk about the technology. So, if this weren't a blockchain interview, we could talk about decentralized science without ever knowing what's the technology behind it. And I think that's really amazing because that means that we found the use case that brings value and no one cares about the technology. — Yeah, that will be then the I guess the message for for the episode. No, that's good. Um, okay. I'm keeping an eye on

the time. Um, and I still have, you know, a couple of recurring questions to ask you. Um so you obviously you know very knowledgeable um about the the field uh that we talked about. So you know web 3, blockchain, decentralized science and yeah all of these topics related to to healthcare. I think you also do a lot of you know content production work in that regard. Um what resources would you you know recommend us to to look at know to learn more about all these things be it books you know publications websites. So I think that well first of all allow me to do a bit of self-promotion and encourage people to listen to my podcast

because it's filled with resources. So tech anatomy that is if you're uh looking for anything related to web3 and AI in healthcare. Um what I really like to do is also and this is very counterintuitive but actually look at the research and the science. Um you do have a lot of very interesting papers that are published. Um I do like to take a look at ILE E spectrum website. Um they publish a lot of things. So it's not necessarily web3 related but it's just terminology in general and um electronics and informatics and things like that. Um if you're really like a geek like I am and you you really like

looking into these things, I think that's amazing. Like I spend hours reading all the other articles and things like that. I think it's really you can go down the rabbit hole on that website. So I encourage you to look at that. Um, if you're interested in anything also AI related, I would suggest you look out um, someone who's called Ali K. Miller. Um, she's one of the thought leaders in the AI space. She does a lot of content on LinkedIn. She has a newsletter that's really great that keeps you up to date on anything like that. So, that's really cool. Um, then if you're looking into DI, I encourage you to follow Molecule, which

is a company that's in this space, one of the founders of the DI movement, and they have a lot of great resources as well and a newsletter. And then with anything blockchain related, gh I don't really know where to get the information anymore. You know, you have the classical news about the crypto world and so on, but blockchain and healthcare lately, there's not a lot going on. So I don't have very good resources for that. — Yeah, I mean you you mentioned already plenty of them and I I'll put all of them in the in the show notes so that people can easily find the related resources. Um you know there's a second

question around um you know an anecdote from your work that you know made you realize the impact that you were having on people's lives like usually as kids in the sense where people have direct interactions you know to to patients or they're working on technology that is patient facing um in your case I guess the the impact is more like on the health tech ecosystem and maybe more like on industrial actors but yeah so I still thought you know I'd ask you the question as well. Well, I think that the work we're doing um on my podcast, but also um at the agency as a whole where we create a lot of podcasts for

others, we really were so proud when we help health healthcare people, people that don't know a lot about technology have those aha moments. I think that's something that's so gratifying when you know these technologies have this buzz effect where everyone talks about them but not a lot of people actually understand what they are and so something happens where after a while a lot of people won't admit that they don't understand because they feel like you know they're going to be judged I mean this thing has been going on for years now like I cannot say that I don't understand and I think the whole thing that we're doing with the podcast and

all the other tech communities that we're doing is help healthcare people really understand technology and feel at ease with technology, understand what decentralized ledger is, understand what machine learning is in very very simple terms. And this is something that we're incredibly proud of is when we see so for instance we worked with a client and at the beginning we had a handful of people who were interested in AI and the goal was to have a 100 plus people in the company interested but they were very scared and we ended up reaching those 100 plus people through storytelling through gamification through content and so this is what we're really proud of is how do we use

these technologies and these ways of telling stories to engage people and bring them into the tech conversation. Take us with us into the rabbit hole into the geek world and you know share a good time and I think that's really amazing part of our job. — Yeah. And there's a big education aspect as well. So I think you know um yeah we benefit a lot from it. So thank you for doing all that work. Um you already mentioned it but maybe you will mention someone else. So, if you would recommend, you know, a fellow healthcare innovator um as a potential guest for the podcast, who would that be and where

would you recommend her or or him? — So, I think you should talk to Jimner. As I said, um he's amazing. I've known him for eight years now. He's probably one of the first people when he was still working at the CDC who reached out and he was like, I see you're talking about blockchain. I'm really interested in that as well. Let's connect. And ever since um I see him I think every year in the Nordics because we attend the same conference up there. So we I I see him once a year and it's always great to connect. He is incredibly knowledgeable about this topics. He is one of the very

few people that I know who actually understands the value proposition of blockchain and decentraliz decentralized ledger technologies that actually uses the technologies and is not just talking about them and who can actually testify to the value that it can bring. And so if you want to understand this and the intersection with AI, I strongly recommend inviting him on the show. I can connect you with him. — Super. Then know we'll have to consider him then, I guess. If not this season, maybe the next one, but yeah, if you can put us in touch, that would be that would be great. — Of course. — Okay. Thank you so much. I think it was

a very, you know, interesting episode. I mean I say that to every episode but um you know I thought you had a lot of you know honesty and um yeah it was it was good to hear that you know what you you know that the use cases that we talked about like two three years ago are still you know valid that you know the value proposition of that technology didn't change but it's also good to have that sort of like reality check in terms of where things stand and how you know how much it's actually being used. Um, and I'm glad we touched on the decentralized science topic because I, yeah, I really

didn't know about that like two years ago, two days ago. So, yeah, I hope people will have learned something new and again, thank you for all the work you do um, in the space and all the content you produce. Um, I think it's helping a lot of people. — Well, I think that I can say the same thing back because I'm a big fan of the podcast. uh we've worked together on the podcast. So uh thank you for spreading the word and also contribute to educating people around technology and all the amazing medical devices and projects that you highlight. It's really a great pleasure to listen to your episodes this time. So thank you so much

for having me. — Thank you. — Thanks for watching the episode. I hope you enjoyed it. You can subscribe by clicking on the podcast channel at the top right and watch another episode here at the bottom.